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  Fifth Age  General  General Game Di...  10 Paths?! Willpower Effects, too.
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New Post 9/23/2009 12:25 AM
User is offline Venushai
64 posts




10 Paths?! Willpower Effects, too. 
Modified By Venushai  on 9/22/2009 10:26:48 PM)

(Note this post is rather disjointed and hit on 3-4 main topics that could have probably been their own posts, but I felt the need to puke on my keyboard while I could keep everything in my head.)

 

Sorry guys, but 10 paths total per character is just so few...

This may have been an intentional design feature, and I see that 'capping' or trading out skills just doesn't quite work with the way the stats and leveling are... but being stuck with no room for growth for the entirety of a character's life is one of the big reasons for character A.D.D.

10 paths forces a few fundamental things in character building. If you develop a strong archetypical concept, ie rogue/fighter/mage then you still don't even have enough slots to be good at all of that branch. Fine, that encourages some variety of build. But if you want to in essence 'multiclass' you really begin to sacrifice effectiveness in some grevious ways, specifically with the practicality of how useful some paths are over others.

 

For instance, Daze/Immobilize. Best. Path. Ever. You do damage and inconvenience, as well as remove an NPC/PC from the combat for a while. It works on everybody. All the time. It only gets better with leveling. Daze/Immobilize is an amazing example of something leveling well.

 

On the other hand, look at any of the sundry Willpower effects that the player base has access to. (I've heard some juicy ones get called by NPC's, but they are apparently secret, unlockable, or too darn good or game imbalancing.) Why on earth would you EVER use SIlvertongue except for flavor when there is a very good chance that it won't work on anyone its worth using on, it takes you out of the fight, and you can only use it once. Immobilize does nearly the same effect, but you can walk away and do damage to boot. So, it boils down to nearly all Willpower effects being for flavor only, unless you are a Lurking Haunt, which makes them better in that you can use them from interesting situations but does not fundamentally fix them. Goad is great (Lurking Haunt, while DEAD?!), and I don't really see a reason for intimidate.

 

 

On the subject of leveling up, and/or character evolution and development,

After event 2543, Character XYZ is still only getting more packets. They don't do any more effect, in the case of spells (other than the elites, which are nice but not new). Doing the same thing, but just more iterations of the same effect, is barely a reason to develop the skill. Setting down a firing position of a gazillion fireballs, however, is still an intriguing idea even if all they do is a couple damage with no fancy effects.

Another question i've been pondering is of Impede. When weapons only do 1-2 damage, how is Impede 3 through 10 useful?

But what of the evolution of a character? To use myself as an example, I've taken advantage of the free rebuilds to 'develop' my character's on-paper abilities akin to a time when we used to cap skills and take new ones by getting rid of the old or less useful ones, or to accomodate in character developments. Now I suppose that would be the realm of merit purchases for stat-retaining re-writes?

 

Maybe my rant is groundless, but I've been agonizing over which seven of all the paths to limit myself to for the rebuild. My main issues spring from trying to create a Black Guard Lurking Haunt. There just are not enough slots to develop the character to the degree that would be a flavorful and still effective character, and I feel compelled to take what would be more combat-effective over what would fit the flavor more (Immobilize vs. Intimidate, etc) in the effort to actually succeed at mod's... And while one could argue that being flavorful is all down to the portrayal of the character, it would be nice to call a Willpower effect on something besides a mook, once in a while, and not have it be laughed off even out of combat.

It boils down to : what do I want to be irreovcably stuck with for the next however-long, trapped forever in that pigeonhole?


Current Character Personality Comparison: Goody Two Shoes, The Punisher
 
New Post 9/23/2009 5:15 PM
User is offline Jess
134 posts




Re: 10 Paths?! Willpower Effects, too. 

The point to the ten paths only thing is, indeed, to force players to pick and choose.  Everything in this game from the rules to the mod structures is there to encourage teamwork rather than someone "going it alone."    If there are things you need to happen, but don't have room for, make a group!  Get someone on your side to help you.  If you want to be a jack of all trades and not focus on only one or two stats, you can, but you are stronger if you focus and find someone to focus on other things.  Work with an order, or even get someone in a different order to strengthen your weaknesses.  

 

Impede is removed.  Is in the rules patch.

 

Jess

-With no time at all.

 

Jess

 
New Post 9/23/2009 11:01 PM
User is offline RatMan
88 posts




Re: 10 Paths?! Willpower Effects, too. 
The bigger picture here actually determined those design choices. In EPIC (which many of you may remember as my first foray into LARP writing), I made a skill for everything. Every action I could possibly imagine a character doing had a skill for it, with the idea that you would build your character's personality through those skill choices. With Fifth Age, we went simpler. The game system is actually consciously designed to be light, simple and unobtrusive. It's meant to just give you a few neat options for fighting or whatever. The roleplaying of your character is entirely independent.You don't need your skills to define you. If you want to play a Black Guard of Ironwood, do it. You don't need your skills to define that - no one you're roleplaying with will be looking at your character sheet. They'll be looking at you. There are some neat skills, and not every one might seem as powerful as every other one. The fact is, that's just an impossible standard. However, every skill is good in some situations, no one skill completely negates another, and not everyone plays the same way. You might like Immobilize over Silver Tongue, but Amanda has a LOT of fun with Silver Tongue, and we all have great fun watching her. Is that fun irrelevant? Is that not why we're playing?I mean, I take it as a compliment that there are so many skills you want to take. But you simply don't need those skills to define you.On the subject of NPC-use willpower effects (and, in fact, any NPC-only ability):1. We use LOTS of abilities for NPCs that we would never give PCs, for balance reasons. They might be ultra-powerful and neat for one mod, or just situational, etc. However, sometimes we just like to try new things on the NPCs first, because they're easier to fix if we want to change stuff.2. The demands of the story are the demands of the story. Experience has taught us that abilities like Dominate in the hands of PCs cause balance issues. But being mind controlled is cool! It's a neat story thing, a classic of the genre, so of course we'll occasionally use it.3. Many of those abilities can be accessed by PCs with Recipes. If you notice, the best "neat" powers are had by those that pursue recipes. Those are the hardest things to do as a PC, so naturally we put the most power there. That's a great way to advance as a character - develop those things. For example, we'll never make "Decapitate" into a skill - too powerful. But I already have plans for a Blacksmithing recipe for a Neckbiter Blade that can decapitate once per mod. Make that crap!Anyway, that's that.- Rat Out
That villain will then eat the pie and surrender.
 
New Post 9/23/2009 11:13 PM
User is offline Tony
40 posts




Re: 10 Paths?! Willpower Effects 

Growth is about portayal.  You, Andrew, would not learn any new tricks if suddenly your family was murdered and you swore bloody revenge.  You would only have what you know and your new-found bad-assery.  Eventually after much training (or a few events *cough*), you might have taken enough time (spent enough merits) to learn some new skills.  You should not, however, base your character's "growth" on "different awesome skills I know."

Immobilize might be the best path in the game, but if I Intimidate you from 30 paces, good luck hitting me.  Or I can just have Goose Silvertongue you forever.  FOREVER.  Which, really, is the advantage there.  No fighting.  No parries.  Just an effect.

Multi-Classing just requires pickiness and a willingness to stick to your flavor.  You, for instance, want to build a Shaman that beats people with a stick and commands the fury of the elements.

Fire Magic.  Earth Magic.  Wind Magic.  Water Magic.  Strength.  Toughness.  Stun (or Combat Ready...really, it's a matter of preference).  BAM.  Bad-ass Shaman.

 

Don't worry too much about "combat effectiveness" and "succeeding at mods."  I know you're a powergamer by nature, so I might be talking to the wind here, but you're LARPing.  Let the story and the acting do the talking, and an awesome, flavorful, well-built character will follow.

 

Love,

Tony

 

PS - If you want some ways to not be "pigeonholed," try Cunning Improvisor 3 Primordial or the Rites creation path.  They let you change things around here and there.  They're pretty awesome.

 
New Post 10/11/2009 10:29 AM
User is offline Chris
104 posts




Re: 10 Paths?! Willpower Effects, too. 
Modified By Chris  on 10/12/2009 2:44:14 PM)

 Tony wrote

Fire Magic.  Earth Magic.  Wind Magic.  Water Magic.  Strength.  Toughness.  Stun (or Combat Ready...really, it's a matter of preference).  BAM.  Bad-ass Shaman.



Bad-Naga is the only bad-ass shaman, and that's certainly not his build. 

 Tony wrote
Don't worry too much about "combat effectiveness" and "succeeding at mods."  I know you're a powergamer by nature, so I might be talking to the wind here, but you're LARPing.  Let the story and the acting do the talking, and an awesome, flavorful, well-built character will follow.


Fifth Age was designed with the intent on allowing people to play the game as they'd like, to the point that not caring about storyline, roleplay, or character development is perfectly fine, as long as you don't do anything to really destroy any of those. The difference here is being a dude who likes to fight and only fight, but being considerate to roleplaying and not doing anything to interfere with it's atmosphere; and a guy who's a great roleplayer but talks out of character about something stupid, such as CruxShadows, during a scene. That being said, I don't think Andrew throws those things away, but balances the story/roleplay stuff with the nuts and bolts on his sheet to a way that best works for him, like all of us do. I've certainly made strong roleplay characters at these types of games that were ludicriously powerful on paper. Do whatever works for you, just realize that if roleplaying isn't your thing, you should still respect it; and if you create a character that you just want to roleplay with and don't care about what's on the sheet, don't be upset when you can't do much of anything with what's on the sheet.

Also, Jess is very right. If you want to be able to rock the faces off every mod you go on, make a group. I promise you, they're extremely powerful when people synnergize together.

(Something pretentious),
Chris

P.S. This was really just an excuse to update the "latest post" information.

 
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